Were the parents of ancient Israel strict disciplinarians who hit their children to teach them to obey? From all we can know from the culture, Israel was ahead of its time in valuing human life, and children were treasured. They were the source of well-being in old age. They were the future generation. They were hope for the tribal people of Israel. The metaphor in the bible of father-son/parent-child is a way of talking about the symbolism between God and Israel. It is a term of endearment. It means caring for a child. It is God's love for God's children.

When you hear the word from this passage of "rod," what do you think of? Perhaps a stick for beating and brutalizing, right? But what happens - what happens when we understand the rod in this Proverb as the same kind of rod and staff that comfort in Psalm 23? "Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." The rod and staff are the shepherd's tools for comforting the sheep. It is for caring and protecting, never for beating them to death. A good shepherd delights in his flock. The shepherd will go to whatever lengths necessary to provide the finest grazing, the rich pastures and clean water. The shepherd will do whatever is necessary to provide shelter from the storms and protection from enemies and diseases that sheep are susceptible to.

Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd gives his life for his sheep." This Good Shepherd's rod and staff comfort the sheep. The rod is thrown out on a path to startle the sheep warning them that they are in danger of wandering into an unsafe place. The shepherd uses the rod to drive off coyotes and wolves. Being stubborn creatures, sheep often get themselves into ridiculous dilemmas, like our children. Children are in need of shepherding like sheep so that they don't stray off into paths that will hurt them or destroy them.

The Proverb says that whoever does not use a rod hates his child. In this context, the word "hates" means that the parent does not value their child and does not protect them. A shepherd who hates his sheep will allow them to wander off in any and every direction on their own with no thought for their safety or for their well being. The shepherd may have freedom, but the shepherd will have no love. What of the shepherd who even goes off to find the lost sheep? A parent who hates their child will not offer the basic cares of a good shepherd like guiding and guarding and nurturing or disciplining.

Childhood, as you know, is a dangerous time. Parents who love their child guide their sons and daughters, giving them a safe place to live and to grow in trust, and granting them well being because they know that they are cared for. To love a child is to set limits. Anything-goes parenting is as damaging to our children's spirit as the opposite extreme of anything doesn't-go parenting.

Have you ever heard, "There's nothing wrong with that child that a good whipping won't cure"? And what have we cured? I like to think that most parents don't beat their children into submission, but all kinds of things go on behind the closed doors of our homes. Pressure builds, tensions rise, sudden storms blow through. Every one is caught off guard. A child throws a screaming tantrum on the floor for one more piece of candy and a calm parent can turn quickly into a monster parent. We've all done it at one time or another - screams, hits, angry words and angry actions. Violence is in all of us, and it can erupt sometimes over the smallest annoyances, and we are left wondering where that monster in us came from. As adults, we are responsible to attend to our own inner-rage so that we do not spew it out on our children and injure them.

Jesus said, "Do not respond to evil with evil. Respond to evil by overcoming it with good." We are known as a society by how we treat the children. The wholeness and wellness of our nation depends on the wholeness and wellness of our children, so how are we doing in guiding them and teaching them without breaking their spirits?

When cowboys in the old west caught a wild horse, they saw it as a creature whose spirit had to be broken before it could be useful as a cow pony. An untamed horse was dangerous, not to be approached by anyone but the traditional bronco buster. The method of breaking a wild horse was to tie him down in the chute of a corral so that a saddle could then be put on him. Then the bronco buster climbed on the pony's back and the chute gate opened. Released from his ropes, the shocked creature could then take off into the corral, bucking furiously. The process was repeated over and over again until finally the horse no longer bucked. When the animal's spirit had been broken, it was ready to take its place among the other cow ponies on the ranch. Is this the only way? Is this the only way to discipline our children and to train them?

Many Native American tribes have seen the horse not as a wild beast to be subdued, but as a fellow creature and kindred spirit worthy of respect and consideration. Instead of a hard-riding bronco buster, a gentle brave was given the task of making friends with the pony. Every day he would bring food and water and spend time talking to the animal. In time, the pony became accustomed to visits from this two-legged creature and allowed the Indian to touch and stroke its body. Over time, its fear dissipated until one day the brave knew that he could now put an arm around the pony's neck. Later he would put one leg over his back and when the brave finally slid his body onto the pony without bit or saddle, the training period was over. There was no bucking ever. Horse and rider moved out of the corral as friends.

We have some bronco buster parents, don't we? And we also have some befriending parents. A befriending parent recognizes the child as a kindred spirit, worthy of respect and consideration. They care for the child with good food and spend time listening to the child. Which way is the way of Christ? Which way is the way of Christ, the Prince of Peace? A society that befriends children, that celebrates children, that teaches them the path of peace, this is the one that I want to live in, don't you? I can tell you for sure that our children certainly want to live in that kind of society.

The women's singing group, Sweet Honey in the Rock, has a song called "No Mirrors in My Nana's House." One of the singers explained how this song was created. One of her friends was telling her about growing up in a very poor neighborhood, and she grew up in her grandmother's house and she said, "You know, in my nana's house there were no mirrors."

Her friend asked her, "Well, how did you know what you looked like?"

"Well," she said, "my nana told me. Every morning I would get up and get dressed and comb my hair, and then I would go to nana and I would say, `How do I look?' And she would tell me. She would tell me I was beautiful. She said my skin was smooth and golden brown, kissed by the sun, and she said my eyes shone like silver moonbeams. In my nana's house, there were no mirrors, so I saw myself through my nana's eyes who loved me and the beauty of everything was in her eyes."

Would that all the children of the world had adults who mirrored love and beauty to them like that nana. What kind of a world would we live in then? Wouldn't it be one in which God's will had been done on earth as it is in heaven?

Orley Herron: Nancy, I wrote a book about raising children and I concluded there are three things. One, our young children are not pint-sized adults; two, that we more than not spank our children when we lack the ability to verbalize; and thirdly, in our most desperate moments, we regress to do exactly what our parents did to us when they disciplined us. Now, in light of those things, in light of what you said in that wonderful address, what can we do as a church, and you as a spiritual leader, to really stop the abuse and violence that we are doing to our children?

Nancy Sehested: Well, I think first that we must acknowledge that one of the greatest social questions of our time is how do we stop the violence - the violence in our homes, the violence in our nations, the violence that is erupting all the time in our cities. It is not just a social question. It's a deeply spiritual question, which is why people like me must be continuing to ask that question in our religious communities. And I think that one of things that concerns me is that our religious communities call ourselves people of transformation and people of peace and reconciliation. Why is it, then, that our religious organizations and our churches and our synagogues are not at the very center of training and teaching and guiding people into the ways of how we discipline our children, how we care for one another and stop the violence? I think that we have a lot that is within our power and that is our responsibility as Good News people.

Herron: You said in your address - in your sermon - that Jesus really came to care and to nurture and to heal. Why is it that there is such a close line and a fine line between spanking and beating of our children? What can we do as a church with that? I'm over six foot tall; I weigh my football weight when I played football, and I had to be very careful that Orley Herron did not swing out with the strength that I learned as a football player in disciplining my children. And so what do we really do about that?

Sehested: You have to take great care. I mean, you are very imposing even for someone 5'2" like me, much less for someone who is...

Herron: My wife is 5'3".

Sehested: Oh, good. But someone who is a young child looking up at a very imposing figure, you are already a threat. And so one has to find ways of befriending the child, so that the child knows that they can trust you, and so many of our children do not feel that they can trust an adult. They have not been in an environment where they have known anything but abuse, and it is very easy to go from spanking into beating, because there is within all of us violence that erupts when we least expect it, and what we thought might be just a little swat can become an incredible force of hurt to a young child. And you can read daily in the newspapers about people who said, "Well, I didn't mean to hurt them," and the child was killed.

Herron: So your viewpoint then is taking that staff, as you said, to make that a caring staff and not a hurting staff.

Sehested: That's right.

Herron: And how long do you think it is going to take for us to educate the church to understand that?

Sehested: Yes. You would think that the church would already be the center of this education, but it does seem that too many of our churches are perpetuating this kind of understanding of discipline in beating children, and using the bible, abusing the bible I think, in saying that you need to beat your child to make sure that they are going to obey and do the right thing.

Herron: Nancy, tell me how were you called to the pastorate?

Sehested: Well, it was a great surprise to me, even though my dad and granddad were both pastors. My dad thought for sure that one of my three brothers would follow in the footsteps, but I was the one that followed in their footsteps, and it was a slow unfolding. It wasn't any great dramatic Damascus Road experience of "Oh, yes, now I know." But it had to do with my own sense of knowing the transforming power of God in my own life, and longing to be able to share that with others, and I love the power of the story, and I love to tell the story of God and God's people and the ways in which we stumble, in the ways in which God rises up again, and gives us a second chance. So, it seemed that the things that I love fit within pastoring and so that's where I found myself.

Herron: Thank you, Nancy. I wish we had more time. Maybe the next time.